Instead, the patent would cover running object detection/classification ML models — optionally on remote servers — on screen and audio output and user input of specific applications (particularly videogames), without requiring cooperation from the application, to target ads based on what's happening in the application and to decide when to interrupt the application with an ad.
To hazard a guess: Microsoft or part of Microsoft is planning to include pervasive targeted advertising in the next Xbox console OS, including during gameplay of any game.
There is a couple more wild things here:
1) That there is an agenda, demand and total legal abetment from the top of the power/monetary hierarchy for such corporate policies
2) That there is a horde of individual employees working to those ends without any shadow of doubt, often even vice signaling their intent to be the first to attain the figurative A-bomb or full-blown BB telescreen.
It's easy: The choice was made from someone else, and you just accepted it as normal. Hardware vendors shipping PC's with Windows 11, corporations who went all in to Microsoft's tooling shove Microsoft Teams down your throat because "the company uses it", and the list goes on.
Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose. Decline -> Your subscription will be terminated, no further monies will be debut from your account, are you sure?
You got the important details of the Microsoft parent wrong (the patent doesn’t use camera and microphone monitoring), but more importantly the existence of a patent is not the same as intent to deploy a technique.
Every few years news outlets will generate controversy about a patent they’ve discovered, implying that the company is going to force the evil thing on everyone. If you’ve worked at a tech company with a patent incentive you realize most of these patents are just resume padding junk or people gaming patent incentive systems. I was at a company that had a modest bonus for submitting ideas that could be patented and you wouldn’t believe the junk that people were trying to push through without any intent to ever use it.
As further proof, the patent you’re thinking of where cameras monitor the user is actually from 2009 and was patented by Sony. US8246454B2
It's a long chain, but ultimately it comes down to incompetence... When I was younger (decades ago), I assumed that the incompetence lies on the side of the executives who were overriding knowledgeable technical folk.
I do not believe that anymore.
I have seen the following play out in 5 companies in the last 5 years:
1. The people making the purchasing decisions are told by the technical head what to buy. They get told "Buy Microsoft".
2. The technical head deciding what to buy will not buy something the technical division don't know how to support. He gets told "Buy Microsoft".
3. The technical division are not actually technical, they have just learned where to click when they want to do something. Learning concepts and/or where to click on a different system is beyond the mental acuity of the average professional Microsoft Mouse-Click-Systems-Engineer (MCSE).
4. Unwilling to explain that they are actually incompetent and non-technical, they blame the users when making their recommendation: "The Users Only Know How To Use Microsoft".
5. The users, OTOH, are wondering WTF is going on; collectively, they have no problem switching OSes because they use so many - Android, iOS, MacOS, that infotainment system in their bargin-basement car...
Over the years, I've been told many times by the IT departments "Users only know how to use Microsoft". I've been told exactly that even when when users were happily switching between Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Symbian OS, Blackberry OS, iOS and Android with no problems.
When I got told this, I always asked "Do you know how to do you daily functions on Linux", to which I'll always get some sort of "We tried running Exchange on it, and it didn't work", or "We tried running MSWord on it, and it didn't work", or (in one hilarious case) "We tried running Windows on it, and it didn't work" (No, I don't know what they actually fucking tried!).
It's incompetence on the part of the IT department.
Patent: https://patents.justia.com/patent/20260260258
The mic/camera aspect doesn’t appear on that patent, it seems to be from an abandoned Sony patent filing from 2006 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070261077A1/en?oq=US20...
- I can't find the bit where they monitor you via camera and microphone. (I think the "track your eyes to make sure you don't look away during ads" is already patented for mobile, but has never been deployed as far as I know.)
- "block" your game/program to show ads - I think "pause" would be a better word here, perhaps. That's how ad breaks/popups work, for example on youtube and on many mobile apps, even on the radio in some sense. Scummy? On mobile apps, probably. New? no.
- The part being patented here is some kind of machine learning system to decide the optimal time(s) to show ads.
- Patent doesn't mean it's going to happen.
It's just a patent.
Cory Doctorow wrote a book exactly about this business practices, "Enshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It."
"Once the platform is fundamentally focused on the shareholders, and the users and vendors are locked in, the platform no longer has any incentive to maintain quality. Enshittified platforms that act as intermediaries can act as both a monopoly on services and a monopsony on customers, as high switching costs prevent either from leaving even when alternatives technically exist."
This is why I really like Apple, despite their faults, they've shown that "being marginally less bad than Microsoft" is a good enough strategy to build a trillion-dollar business.
Microsoft has done a lot of super shady things, and they are domiciled in a hyper-corrupt, lawless threat to humanity (one that elects quite possibly the stupidest human alive -- a rapist abomination halfwit clown -- to the highest office), however people do make far too much of the patent thing.
A lot of firms reward groups and employees that get granted patents. It doesn't actually matter if you're spitballing the most absurd nonsense that no one ever asked for and is nowhere on the product map, someone writes the application and gives it a shot. A patent being granted doesn't mean that a single person ever envisions doing this or asked for it implemented, and honestly the idea that they "invented" this is just how farcical the patent system is.
In this case the patent is held by Microsoft's "Microsoft Technology Licensing LLC", which is their "patent extortion" racket. So they literally wrote this hoping to catch someone doing something found in a single claim so that they can use the legal system to rob from people.
Meta and Google will follow soon after.
P.S.: just because they take a patent on something doesn't mean they will actually use it.
That's true, of course, but the fact that there are people in the company thinking like that to begin with, enough to think it's worth patenting such anti-human stuff, is plenty enough for me to never want anything to do with them.
They can hold them criminally liable for surveillance and put the executives in jail if they are so concerned about some patents.
I wasn’t aware of the Microsoft patent but was able to find it³. It was published less than a month ago.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits
² https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sony-patent-mcdonalds/
³ https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
Here's a (bit dated) list of the US companies which rake in the most bucks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_t...
Looking at the 13 which rank higher than Microsoft - how many would you describe as treating their users/customers well?
Theory:
Treating your customers well is part of one strategy for corporate growth and profit. There are other strategies, which also can work very well - and don't require all the hassles and expense and non-evil of treating your customers well. Naturally, Capitalist propaganda stresses that first strategy, and doesn't talk so much about the others.
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- https://github.com/cloud-gouv/securix a hardened/secured os
- https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example an example to use securix to build an office deployment (with some packages https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example/blob/main/co... )
In the same space, also check out openDesk initiated by the German Government (https://www.opendesk.eu/en) and La Suite by the French one (https://lasuite.numerique.gouv.fr/).
AFAIK, there has been some collaboration with the German government on La Suite, not sure about the others.
> Strengthening the digital autonomy of the Netherlands.
Apparently the US becoming an authoritarian state means people don't want to do business with us. We're giving away our best advantage, our reputation for freedom and openness, for absolutely nothing in return.
[1] https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-...
That might still be in violation but I would imagine it's low on Codeberg's radar since they're not making primary contributions there (& if I were DAWO I'd also be interested in limiting direct community agentic contrib).
I would much prefer to be using something like NixOS and not be depending on Microsoft etc but I can't imagine what the stack will look like if we don't revolutionise the work. Sensitivity labels, DLP, etc. are relics of people treating information on computers as if they are physical documents, and I can't see how I will have been paying for BP/E3/E5 licenses for users and then suddenly start to argue we don't need those features anymore after spending so long insisting users need to use them.
My framework laptop, my NAS, my Home-assistant, etc
It’s how I’ve always envisioned “systems management”, but the struggle has been real.
Enter LLM’s - the barriers are kind of gone!
It’s actually making so much sense I don’t know where to start.
Just try it out, using a little bit of LLM support and you can reach a solid-state like setup for servers and workstations.
They also have "Mijn Bureau" which I tried out and wrote about here [0] which is the MS Office alternative.
I take it this is the layer below that, an operating system?
But it all looks quite fragmented still from what I can see, especially now that it's also split across GitHub and CodeBerg as well as being split across different organizations, and trying to collaborate with other efforts by other European countries while still remaining distinct.
[0] https://techstackups.com/articles/is-it-feasible-to-self-hos...
[1] https://github.com/MinBZK/mijn-bureau-infra
[2] https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK/DAWO/src/branch/main/compone...
I wonder if Claude could go from NixOS spec to actual config without the Nixos provider. The provider becomes a natural language description and some links to the docs/source code and then a verifier is all you need.
I think NixOS would be a great solution for this sort of environment. With something like impermanence enabled to make the systems immutable, you could push all configuration from a central server and ensure that there is no drift. You could even use read-only nix stores served over nfs. This would all be easier if your hardware is limited to a few select configurations, of course.
My thoughts, ignoring my technical disagreements, would be that you'd want to setup clients to have a specific set of software per their government role. A nix store could expose more software than you planned on supporting (e.g. forgotten software or licensed software).
Now that's a fairly interesting project and a way to actually bring technology like NixOS to the administrators in the way they expect. From my experience (sample size one, yes) there are more systems administrators that use web interfaces for management than DevOps IaC folks. This would be a good bridging solution if it is a successful project.
[1] - https://members.dawo.community/en/blog/blog-1/dawo-nixos-wor...
I hope you are paying them something.
> DAWO brings public values and technology together. The community pursues five primary goals.
But fails to state what the letters in D.A.W.O. stand for
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That sentence seems to lack an important word. Microsoft is a company so I don't assume they built an alternative for it. Microsoft 365 is what used to be called Office 365 and governments love their Office suite so that would make sense and I could see the number accidentally getting dropped but NixOS is probably an OS so I guess this is about Microsoft Windows but then it just means they're replacing one OS with another and Windows-compatibility (nor Office suite compatibility for that matter) is hardly a novel idea.
The site doesn't seem to have much information about this headline at a glance. Does anyone have a link to the missing context?
$ alias '#'='dsh --profile headless'Are they going with Copilot for Dutchies or Kaaskoppen.NET?
My follow up opinion is that Satya agrees with me, and that is why he has so much anxiety around AI.
www.dawo.community took too long to respond.
"What DAWO stands for
DAWO brings public values and technology together. The community pursues five primary goals."
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* typical deployments
* training/consulting
* compliance with Ditch regulations
* shared infrastructure for custom builds, and CVEs
Guix on paper really sounds ideal, it feels like a more compelling design, more first principles, it's all scheme, really exciting ideas under the hood. But design intent is not a substitute for the actual user experience. IRL it's too much hassle: weak package coverage, weak ecosystem, a steep learning curve, most stuff will require work because it was designed around systemd.
Now NixOS on the other hand already has an abundance of packages and real adoption. Most setups can probably migrate to nix today with a backup of /home and a competent LLM agent, and things "will just work". I did this recently!
Add to that the NixOS ecosystem where things are fairly simple to setup declaratively and "it just works": disko for partitions, sops-nix for secrets, restic for cloud backups, microvm for light vm's, NixOS anywhere or deploy-rs for deployments (colmena or nixops4 for interconnected nodes even). You can do complex things, and your rig or network could explode and it won't matter cause you can rebuild and deploy to a new/repaired machine in minutes. Your backups could explode and all you'd lose is state.
All that is easy to have in Nix today - I know cause I literally just switched and did most of it with like 0 experience. I migrated my fairly complex setup 1 to 1 and gained a ton of useful stuff in Nix, whereas with Guix it wasn't even possible (I would have to trim or package / translate tons of stuff), nor would it have been easy, and all the cool stuff I gained with nix is either difficult or non-existent on guix, let alone mature.
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Which is always granted.
Unless its mandatory, it's just theater.
Not by your choosing, but still.
Is there anyone doing MDM or policy enforcement on Linux other than Google Workspace + chromebooks?
From a user perspective, KDE Plasma or GNOME are simple environments to work in. Most stuff is on the web these days anyway; even a locked down kiosk setup would probably be adequate for many users.
No average office worker will be fiddling with Nix configs or installing Windows software. That’s for IT.
I know it's been said before, but why tf does Claude insist on writing in Reverse Polish notation?
So while more alternatives here are the logical answer, as well as eliminate the greedy US corpoations, I am not sure NixOS as it is right now is ideal. On paper, NixOS should solve EVERYTHING. For instance, if a build status works for one user, the environment guarantee should mean it works for EVERYONE ELSE. Same with other problems and hardware, so in theory, NixOS should be perfect.
In practice, though, I found working with NixOS annoying, for many reasons. A static system that has issues, is not good. A static system that restricts me in problem solving, is not good. Plus, Nix is ugly to no ends - I have no idea why the NixOS team thought a new programming language is required. Why do I need to define static elements in Nix? Why not make that more free form? I already describe my whole system via yaml files, which in turn ruby uses to generate everything I need. Then there are smaller issues, like why do I need to use systemd on NixOS, why can I not used versioned AppDirs with a name scheme similar to GoboLinux (hashed program directories on NixOS are, of course, also versioned app-dirs, but I hate reading 7897389nughuewz789gewh2t93h923-hghwugeiw73, that simply tells me nothing. Why not have /Programs/Python/3.15.0/ ? It can't be simpler than that.)
Anyway - good for the Netherlands to push here, Denmark, Sweden, Finland will also push, even France, though slower. Now please everyone, help us convince the german government to stop being such a tool for Trump. Merz is a failure anyway, but the problems go far deeper than merely Trump, and with the AfD going to seize power, idiocy will again dominate in Germany. That's very bad. Germany is soooooooo slow here. Microsoft even managed to kill LiMux years ago. They have placed their economic hitmen in Germany, so the whole EU does not work anyway because Germany will keep on dragging every other country down. It is thus very understandable why real innovation comes from the smaller countries in the EU, as they are quicker to innovate. Unfortunately the big german behemoth will roll over them and again cripple many required things in the EU.
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I talk about small businesses mostly, starting with ten or twenty computers, zero config, bonjour discovery, download apps from the app store, for me it looks like a total winner
Microsoft or Linux don't offer such an easy path to productivity, so why is it? What is lacking? What needs to be done in order for that scenario to work? What roadblock have you hit when trying to implement it?
We all use apple products, iMacs, Macbooks, and if we start a business for sure we as CEOs or managers will use one on our desktops, so why? Genuinely interested in answers...
I was running a little mitmproxy network test on some baby-tracking apps to see what kind of data got sent back home and man, realizing that everything I was doing on my phone was essentially being recorded and 'anonymized' by whatever definition of MS has for anonymization was really not fun
I can tell it’s still windows but I’m shocked how many things I have to turn off to stop live data from the internet appearing in my GUI. Also my profile settings, saved passwords, and other data seems to reset unexpectedly cause some or all settings to disappear. Finding stored passwords is also surprisingly difficult or impossible depending on I don’t know what.
Adding such overt spying to this mess of an OS achieves a new low in user experience.
Lately I don't know if I should stay quiet as to not interrupt someone subtly intentionally poisoning LLM training.
* "contextual cues from or based on the interactive software application" [0035]
* "OPTIONALLY in communication with an event detection module" (emphasis mine) [0035]
* "In some embodiments the content management system can receive user inputs from a user interacting with the interactive software application to interpret the content of the interactive software application" [0053]
* Regarding inputs to the event detection systems (which are expressly say don't need to run locally): "video information, audio information, game state data, or other information provided by or from the interactive software application" [0065]
* "FIG. 10 is an embodiment of a frame of video information received from the interactive software application that may be used for identifying events within the user's gameplay." [0073] (Note the patent does not limit itself to video games, just interactive software applications; this is just an example in that context.) [0073]
* "In some embodiments, the video information include user input information." [0092]
And, the design explicitly allows remote processing of this information:
* "The content management system may be stored and/or executed remotely to the client device" [0033]
* "the event detection module may be local to or remote from the content management system." [0036]
You're right, it doesn't include the whole screen and systems audio. Just the parts in the application. But Microsoft just adds this functionality to all software, and then there's no effective difference.
And that is extremely likely to me. And feasible. The patent doesn't say this has to be embedded in applications. Microsoft can implement this on any application. And Microsoft is well beyond the benefit of the doubt when it comes to privacy concerns.
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If you're in US big tech you're working directly for the regime and fully complicit, end of.
1. People who do not have to use it themselves (political decides, bosses, ..), but get lobbied to the max
2. People who have to administer it and know nothing else and endure the lasting pain over the perceived infinite hurdle of changing the system
I gladly can use Linux at work, so I have had a stable, reliable and unchanging system since the past 6 years, but others have to go through major pains for each version of enshittification of their OS update. In my case the OS just got better slowly and incrementally.
If you value your own dignity you should see that these scenarios are worlds apart. In one case you have a trillion-dollar company actively working against your own interests. On the other hand, you had some trouble finding drivers for a volunteer-driven project, which is a problem that you are actually empowered to fix.
Try reinstalling that surface pro with windows 11 without a Microsoft account. Windows is okay, but every update introduces new bullshit, bloatware, accounts you're forced to use, UI-changes. Linux is reliable in the sense that you can chose when and if you want to change things and there is always a way to do it the way you want to do it (something that is the big weakness of MacOS).
Additionally KDE Plasma is the best Desktop UI on all operating systems today. Scripting and automation on Linux is killer, ... The only reason for Windows/MacOS is certain software that doesn't performantly run on Linux (or if Linux scares you).
3. People who do not care and are not in IT or on Hacker News.
I doubt a lot of regular people care what Microsoft is doing. All they want is a laptop or PC that works or to be able to play their XBOX games.
Because alternatives are bad. After decades of being great, Linux gaming community finally gave up on it working and accepted emulation of Windows as the way to go. (No need to nitpick on tech specifics of how Wine works)
If you mean Linux-only classic open source games, like Angband or Battle for Wesnoth or something, they still exist, but the demand has clearly gone down because now almost all games work on Linux. Except the ones with anti-cheat systems that rootkit-style access to your system.
Why can't the EU learn more from Canada? Canada realised that with Trump there is no way to make a deal. So cut things down where possible, diversify - the EU still has to learn this lesson. In particular Germany is totally US-addicted - no idea why, other than, of course, the obvious answer ("we need to export into the USA", aka selfish greed from Germany here).
" Gas covered a little more than a quarter of Germany’s primary energy use in 2025, making it the country’s second most important energy source. Germany is among the world’s biggest natural gas importers – around 95 percent of its gas consumption is met by imports, according to energy research data group AGEB. "
" Energy industry association BDEW said that Norway has now become Germany’s top gas supplier by far, with about 45 percent in 2025, transported by pipeline. Around one tenth of the gas used in the country arrives as liquefied natural gas (LNG) directly at one of four import terminals along the coast. In 2025, around 95 percent of that LNG came from the US. "
European countries are trading gas between them, we have to look into whole European imports. For example Germany is import lot of US gas through Belgium.
" Russia has continued to supply a sizeable portion of gas imports, although the EU has decided to fully phase them out by 2027. Most natural gas in a gaseous state was imported from Norway (52%), Algeria (20%), Russia (10%), and the UK (8%) in 2025. LNG came from the US (55%), Russia (14%), Qatar (9%), and Algeria (6%). "
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germany-eu-remain...
Doing some trading with a shitty country doesn't imply any dependency
That means basically not getting a job, or a consulting gig, among most large corporations.
Also "just go get another job" isn't a position many of us can take in current times.
I think Teams improved and Zoom regressed in the last 3-4 years to the point the garbage level is not that different nowadays. Most of the annoyance is related to finding your way in a different interface.
Avoiding Office 365 is so annoying due to everyone in academia using it that I’m using macOS instead of Linux at work just to interface with others better. I got used to it but I need Linux as soon as I’m home, I feel observed and vulnerable otherwise.
I have tried to get them to use Discord or pretty much anything else, but they have been unreceptive.
I am on Linux and so I just use the browser version, which at least sandboxes stuff for me, I think.
Maybe they should stand up their own gov jitsi or something, but then the public may not be able to work out how to use it.
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The lowering of the quality barrier of entry to power for the politicians enabled by the glorification of stupidity via the megaphone of social media and the resultant divided electorate has given rise to the assholes nakedly profiting from it.
No matter how toxic you are, you can amass support at the speed of light.
It is basically downhill from here.
Meanwhile educational standards have continued to decline, and this will inevitably affect both the electorate and their decisions. Education has been on a downhill trajectory ever since Roger Freeman convinced Reagan that free higher ed was creating a dangerous “educated proletariat.” This was the genesis of the privatization that created diploma mills, insane tuition costs, and the student loan crisis. Public schools gradually moved away from the humanities toward a narrow STEM focus, despite these fields not being a good fit for everyone. Coincidentally, a narrow STEM focus doesn’t give future voters a comprehensive and historically grounded understanding of government. (This has not been helped by left activists trying to overcorrect by rewriting history.)
Pressure has been building, and it found an outlet under Trump. Some steam has been released, Trump has 2 years left (maybe) and only die-hard supporters still believe in him. There will be a small window to either start fixing problems or set up a comprehensive police state to rule without public consent.
“I voted for him, and he's the one who's doing this. I thought he was going to do good things. He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/tr...
I believe that it is more a familiarity issue, and seeing Linux/Mac as an obscure tool only usable by gurus.
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That behaviour in itself is believed to be morally wrong, and dystopian. That still doesn't answer the question why people just accept this. How can "we" deem ourself more moral than the Nazis, and literally do this.
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In other words - go ahead and click "I agree" without reading it, then proceed to dump the firmware or whatever else it is that you want to do. You aren't lying or otherwise doing anything wrong. The legal system is just broken.
The fact that such a legal reality has been permitted to reach this point has to be one of the clearest illustrations that western systems of government remain highly flawed despite all that they get right.
Well, you can always return the phone. For online purchases you have 14 days to return it just because (you don't need to provide a reason).
> Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...:
“Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time, the trader may modify the digital content or digital service beyond what is necessary to maintain the digital content or digital service in conformity in accordance with Articles 7 and 8, if the following conditions are met:
[…]
2. The consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract if the modification negatively impacts the consumer's access to or use of the digital content or digital service, unless such negative impact is only minor. In that case, the consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract free of charge within 30 days of the receipt of the information or of the time when the digital content or digital service has been modified by the trader, whichever is later.”
Imagine if we actually had real regulations, instead of these negotiated things. Then we could just sue and normal courts could handle it.
I'm not OP, but I'm really not sure how you came to that assumption. A cursory Google search for "Microsoft monitor patent" brought up a bunch of articles that actually linked to filings like what OP talked about from this year.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/26/6f/30/238c9d7...
https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/microsoft-patents-s...
The patent for using a camera and microphone was a Sony patent from 2009.
(https://twitter.com/AlexBlechman/status/1457842724128833538)
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Of course with face identification for unlocking, there is now a power incentive to not do so…
I generally dislike Microsoft because they make crappy products, but does this add to your point? I don’t think so, and it’s largely incorrect.
For example I despise Donald Trump but you can’t be the stupidest human alive and be president. It’s just objectively false.
The US is one of the few (arguably the only) countries holding the barbarians at the gate - the ones who are a threat. Frankly, the Dutch have historically been the greater threat to humanity and we saw the devastation and destruction wrought by their colonialism (which the Dutch haven’t paid reparations for in total) unleashed upon the world.
Sincerely, a Dutch guy.
Plus I didn't say you were the greatest threat today, that would be Russia and probably Iran as a clear #2, I said you were historically much worse because of your colonialist past.
One can only hope that another power that cares about rules fills the void.
There isn't one. You've got the US or nobody at this point, unfortunately.
> The US (or Trump) is the bigger threat because it is currently actively destroying the rule-based world order, which introduces exactly the lawlessness, chaotic times that opens the window for Iran and Russia to 'do business'.
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 when Trump wasn't president. Iran attacked Israel and kicked off a new and worse round of fighting in 2023 when Trump was also not president - the war today is just a continuation of that latest round.
While he has done some damage to the alliance by being a jackoff he also forced Europe to spend more which was required for defense. Europe also made itself dependent on Russian oil and gas, even recently France un-sanctioned some Russian billionaires and is making some awful decisions too.
Yes? Donald Trump, and the fact that he is the symptom of a fallen empire that has reverted to being an idiocracy, flailing around and trying to bully its way to a lost dominance that is fading away, is precisely why the Dutch government is doing this. It's quite literally the subtext of this discussion.
And for that matter, it's why all American companies are going to find their reach shrink. Visa and Mastercard are worldwide systems whose days are numbered, for instance. The US banking system is being ejected everywhere it is found.
> but you can’t be the stupidest human alive and be president. It’s just objectively false.
I mean, I guess people actually vote for this pathological liar / megalomaniac who is a lifetime failure in every dimension, so true. They're even worse. But Trump is objectively a profoundly stupid person. It's actually astonishing now how he is basically a simpleton in the White House, lying with every utterance, and it's just another day. It isn't even newsworthy. Oh yeah, his big TrumpTM Arch is now going to have drones and snipers! Also, how about that fantasy deal with Belarus for all that potash that doesn't exist, was farcical nonsense on its face, yet everyone reports it because this foolish liar just makes up stuff endlessly so it isn't even notable. Aren't Americans just unbelievably ashamed at how pathetic this loser is, or that he lies -- usually in the cause of pushing his greatness -- with every other word?
Seeing Xi mog this pathetic chimp yet again was amazing stuff. The world is yours, China.
> The US is one of the few (arguably the only) countries holding the barbarians at the gate
This has to be a joke. There is no way anyone on this planet is so deluded and misinformed.
I believe this is the reason everyone's running after these camera-glasses: because they believe they can rake in big bucks with them. Even Apple is contemplating to sell them.
Almost all of them.
> Amazon
I guess customers yeah, Employees? not so much
The problem though is that there’s always a strong push by French companies and organizations to reject English at any cost, despite the fact that is the most popular language in Europe.
Yes, I get that this is a way to preserve the French language and they have all the rights to do that (in the end, they’re the ones putting the effort in these initiatives) but imagine how faster these ideas could be shared and diffuse in Europe if French understood this. If all the countries in Europe just keep pushing their nationalist ideology instead of truly believing into a united and solid Europe Union, we won’t go any where.
Maintaining both languages is hard but we will do our best.
Interestingly, a French-speaking Canadian who has spent some time in France told me that his right to use the French language is better protected in Canada than it is in France. He thinks that this is a consequence of the reciprocality implied by having more than one official language: French speakers in Canada get the same rights as English speakers, so people are happy to grant rights in return for getting them, whereas in France everyone gets screwed and you end up with a situation in which a French person wanting to do a PhD on French history at a French university has to write their grant application in English.
That was 18 years ago: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu
Isnt this just baked into the idea? The French are building an OS for internal use for their own interests.
If we then try to extend that or the Dutch OS to other countries we have the original problem of dependence.
It's also great when an actual commercial organization with requirements gets into the Linux game, as they don't really yield to 'we could make that printer work but it would be against everything we stand for' style arguments that have cemented problems in Linux userland for decades.
Putting stuff in English will tend to exclude the less educated, or people who struggle to learn foreign languages.
EDIT: and actually, from looking at the README of https://github.com/cloud-gouv/securix
> Ce README est en français mais le reste du code, les issuers et les PR sont en anglais.
The README is in French but the rest of the code, the issues (they wrote issuers, but that is a typo I suspect) and the PRs are in English.
So. :P
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If one country in the UN adopted some new OS, we wouldn't expect every other country (incl the US) to adopt it too.
FWIW, I'm not saying that I would expect the EU to do a better job than the Dutch government. Likely quite the opposite. But it's frustrating as passionate European... that these problems aren't tackled on a union level. You'd think that's their job? The EU will never compete if it stays a loose partnership of 27 countries, and if it can't even get France, Germany, and the Netherlands to work on this together instead of running 3 separate projects...
Two competing products emerge, they are battle tested, opinions form, reviews are conducted. At that point it's a much better time for a significantly larger organisation to create a more focused realistic plan based on learnings and outcomes.
Imagine the analysis paralysis that would set in if the EU tried it from scratch - years of requirements gathering, pilots, reports...
Yeah what could possibly go wrong
A “distro” is ultimately just a prebuilt configuration.nix file. NixOS itself even has tools to provide ISOs and QEMU images based on the build.
Don't the stakeholders perceive this as a problem, too?
Or is it inevitable, given how differently these bureaucracies are structured?
I'm not saying every small administration of a 200-souls village needs to do this, but on the scale of a nation who has a GAFAM budget in the hundreds of millions of euros (probably, haven't made the calculation), it's not crazy to invest a few million on a side project like this to reduce dependency.
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The issue I have run into is that for running llama.cpp, which is a very actively developed bleeding-edge software, it seems like experimenting with different versions/configs/patches etc. was fighting with the Nix philosophy of immutable software, so I ended up just managing it outside of nix.
But this could be user-error, I've only spent a couple of weeks with it.
for agentic execution sandboxing, preventing 'rm -rf /home' nix or nix-direnv doesn't help, podman could be used next to nix. https://discourse.nixos.org/t/what-is-sandboxing-and-what-do...
IMHO this is way easier than without Nix in many cases as figuring out the upstream build process and getting it running can often be quite the chore. With Nix it is all set up for you.
May be. I'd guess it probably does it in a high-friction way compared to what you expect.
e.g. in a typical linux distro, you can just replace the (globally installed) version of the package and use that.
With Nix, you've got a declaration of how to build a package, including its dependencies; and each of those dependencies is also a declaration of how to build that package, and so on. -- And so, "just change this version" results in rebuilding the full chain of dependencies.
If you want multiple readily-available versions of llama.cpp each with different configs/patches, then using Nix would make this easier I'd think. But for "I just wanna try this, then try that", it's going to add overhead.
However Codeberg actual "fuzzy" policy is less strict than "no LLM used ever".
But they do let me visit blog.codeberg.org
From [1]
> We must regularly implement temporary security measures to ensure the availability of Codeberg's resources and prevent abuse.
> The 403 you have received is expected based on the UA.
From [2]
> What is the version of your chromium? AFAICT <=137 gets 403 Forbidden: [...] while >= 138 works ok: [...]
edit: looks like this was originally the case and then they moved?
It amuses me that Mastodon Central uses corpo-friendly labels for the sites they won't federate with, e.g. (https://mastodon.social/about)
tsundere.love Suspended (Hate speech)
you**.**ve Suspended (Inappropriate content)
nadeko.pw CP
mk.fedcast.ch Spam
youjo.love hosts at least one admitted pedo> projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools
And "mostly" here seems egregiously undefined to me
https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/commit/96fac426a32d1ba91ff...
1. how is this bad, in Codeberg's case, practically speaking?
2. in what cases is this illegal for governments to do? In practice no legislation is perfectly enforced, & even judiciaries have varying degrees of exactness across countries - to the point that things such as desuetude are densely studied legal topics.
(note: I'm aware of the negative ramifications if desuetude but not aware of any negative ramifications of Codeberg's specific ai policy)
> DAWO Core has moved from https://code.overheid.nl to Codeberg to facilitate community collaboration.
It's not quite a federated/decentralised platform in the traditional sense, but the decentralised nature of Git makes it a close enough equivalent, & the fact they're built upon a shared platform makes them very easy to navigate. So setting up public instances for each government or org makes a lot of sense.
Codeberg even maintains a list of alternative pubic Forgejo instances[0], some of which are explicitly pro-AI.
[0] https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#publ...
There is no point in being on the extreme end around banning all code generated by AI.
Regardless, there is AI generated code in many repositories on Codeberg anyway.
They have a strict policy (which many have rightly pointed out is impossible to fully enforce), & their "enforcement" has mostly relied on good faith contributions to date. They're also accounting for the fact the ToS change came without advance notice for many of their users who were already making active use of agents, hence there remains many AI repos (I have yet to hear of any removals).
To me that seems like the best approach one can hope for - a lax policy is a slippery slope (presuming dissuading AI contrib is your goal), & wouldn't satisfy their legal concerns (hosting code of questionable copyright status), & strict enforcement isn't viable in any case (especially at their scale), so this seems to me to be the best compromise.
As a random example, AI generated content is banned from the /r/ProgrammingLanguages subreddit and any regular visitor that _isn't_ suffering from AI psychosis/FOMO will tell you it's for the better. In general it's not that difficult to moderate for it either as AI built projects consistently contain the same patterns _over and over_ such that 98% is easily detected.
I predict that eventually people will read the linked blog post and realize Codeberg already allows AI generated code. But this requires reading and nuance of course, which is hard to come by sometimes, so I guess we'll continue see misinformed comments like this until eventually the web is only autonomous agents.
The same applies here, is it really "more open" to allow corporations to profit by removing the openness of your work?
They're targeting slop and essentially spam, not everything that could possibly have been built by LLMs.
> If you see yourself on this list, you don't need to move right away, but
there might be other places that better fit your needs:
- Projects written and maintained with heavy use of LLMs
Personally, the refusal on "Projects heavily tied to the LLM ecosystem, e.g. LLM-written tools to ease LLM usage" is enough reason, as that's a good chunk of what I've been working on.
And that's not a bad thing. That's why they are communicating, so if you feel that is you and you're uncomfortable about it, you can move out and it's a win win.
Not everything should service all of us, especially not the smaller services. It's OK for places to have their own rules and them being upfront about this is a *good* thing.
No, the policy being fuzzy is a feature, because they're not 100% against all LLM usage, they're against slop and AI-spam, which is what they're trying to combat.
Laws are fuzzy, and we're doing mostly fine with this, of course there are edge-cases. But that's exactly why laws are fuzzy in the first place.
If you have a "automated software factory" or whatever the vibe-coders are up to today, then yes, Codeberg is probably not for you. But if you sit with a agent TUI in one tab, review things closely and don't just "throw code over the wall" without reviewing it, you have nothing to worry about with hosting code on Codeberg.
Educating oneself to provide better quality of work still requires writing code by hand, and by extend is an achievement of merit.
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LibreOffice Sheets doesn’t compete with Excel 2024, it competes more with Excel 2003. Granted, this is fine for a lot of (most?) people but it’s still not a “replacement” in my mind.
I ended up just building a Nix Flake to properly run Excel. At least then the operating system itself isn’t MS.
Even without the VBA though, it’s missing basically any feature added in 2019 like Lambda and filter and dynamic arrays.
I wouldn’t consider myself a power user, I would say I am a “high level basic user”, and even I have noticed the shortcomings. And this is also coming from a dude who very much wants a FOSS thing to succeed over Microsoft.
I think the only way we can actually solve the problem is to get a FOSS product up to snuff with Excel. I use Julia if I need really elaborate number crunching, but I don’t view it as a substitute for Excel; the interactivity of spreadsheets is really useful, especially when you’re actively developing stuff.
Valve is making desktop computers now; maybe the next thing they could improve is LibreOffice to try and appeal to businesses.
It supports Office 365 and Office 2024 Home works as of about two days ago.
I think it would require very little if any effort to get Home and Business working but the license for that was too expensive (though pull requests are welcome!)
Currently limited to stuff that can be activated on Microsoft’s website. I tried very hard and was ultimately unsuccessful at getting Office 2024 Pro Plus working from a gray-market key I bought on Groupon, because the MAK activation stuff appears to depend on a lot of stuff that Wine/Proton doesn’t implement. Again, pull requests are welcome if someone here figures out how to do it.
But that's not all. Avoiding US based proprietary tools, in general, is going to be a challenge. The EU needs some kind of fund to create the next generation of productivity tools for this platform. Not just equivalent replacements. Requirements change and new tools need to be different.
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They don't need to reimplement all of MS Office, just the parts they need to serve their constituency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mqVnyOTeN8
TLDW:
- Nix needs weird tricks to make its packaging scheme work
- The main repo is uncurated and hosted on Github
- The functional nature of packages means a low level update can either trigger a huge wave of updates or you end up with out of date deps. Usually both happen at the same time
1. The rigidness of it all, which after a while is the main point ofc. Takes getting used to, but awesomeness for servers
2. The highly specialized filesystem layout requires some tinkering when trying to “just get things to work” that is not already packaged/wrapped for nixos
3. The language is… special. An acquired taste perhaps.
4. Flakes, home-manager, experimental flags galore.
LLM’s makes short work of it all, and having a devenv.sh setup of all your projects is :chefs-kiss:
My machines are essentially solid-state devices, and it all just becomes extremely predictable and stable.
The primitives for packaging in nix feel exactly like what they should be. When you look at a definition, the things that piece of code could do in principle (and things you could do with it as a consumer) tend to cleanly match it's semantic purpose and its responsibilities. So a lot of things are self-documenting.
If you have a single machine and only use stuff from the official nixpkgs, there are no more struggles than any other linux distro, this is a very happy path (imo).
Going outside of that you will, practically, need to convert to using flakes. The conversion is easy, but its another learning curve and there are conflicting docs. Agents make short work of this.
Packaging things yourself can get quite hairy. For simple projects in a single well supported language its easy and just a couple lines of code. For a rust+wasm+solidjs+vite+julia+more monorepo, it was a couple of weeks on a steep learning curve. Agents are pretty okay at packaging in general, I've been able to oneshot a number of difficult-for-me packaging problems, other times it can be an unmitigated mess.
For remote deploys, secrets management, and other devops-like tasks, things get harder, but most people don't need/want this and if you make it this far the remaining learning curve is totally worth it.
A monolithic configuration may be adequate if each machine role only exposes the software that’s needed in its config. Other software that’s in the store could be hidden in some way, like overlay paths, perhaps. There may be other methods too. There’s a similar discussion here although this is about restricting paths via bubblewrap: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/restricting-nix-store-in-a-mou...
Most licensed software wouldn’t be an issue as long as the user doesn’t have license access, I’m assuming the license server would grant or deny access based on the user/user role. Depends on the software I guess.
I wonder if it’s possible to run a bubblewrapped (or similarly restricted) Wayland client and restrict access to store paths that way?
Flakehub is one attempt at solving the discovery problem. For example: https://flakehub.com/flake/nix-community/disko?view=usage.
The German Defense sector did something with Nextcloud, Collabora Online, Open-Xchange, Element/Matrix and Univention Nubus I believe. With things like Euro-Office and Nextcloud really stepping things up. Even Proton getting an office suite, I don't think the M365 platform is the big hurdle it once was. Especially because Microsoft lost the private market. 25 years ago you'd get employees who knew how to use Microsoft Office, today they all grew up with Macs, Chromebooks and similar.
What is the alternative though? If you piss off Trump you risk getting all your digital infrastructure shut down over night. It doesn't even have to be you who pisses him off. Obviously using Anthropic AI service has it's own issues within the EU trade zone, but it's been what... 3 months? Since they were ordered to shut off EU access to their most powerful models because they ran afoul of the US government.
I'll happily try it.
As for the third item - that's not answering my question, it's a homunculus answer: What could the Netherlands have regulated that requires making changes to NixOS? Which NixOS maintainers themselves could not oblige?
I'm sure NixOS can provide those, but rather than each department figure out how to do that, organisations try to centralize figuring this out: which packages and configuration satisfies the requirements.
One of the items discusses MFA. Organisations will want to standardise on exactly which MFA devices they provide and support.
2. Because Guix is less mature and more, ehm, opinionated, than *ix + nixpkgs
Guix on paper really sounds ideal, it feels like a more compelling design, more first principles, it's all scheme, really exciting ideas under the hood. But design intent is not a substitute for the actual user experience. IRL it's too much hassle: weak package coverage, weak ecosystem, a steep learning curve, most stuff will require work because it was designed around systemd.
Now NixOS on the other hand already has an abundance of packages and real adoption. Most setups can probably migrate to nix today with a backup of /home and a competent LLM agent, and things "will just work". I did this recently!
Add to that the NixOS ecosystem where things are fairly simple to setup declaratively and "it just works": disko for partitions, sops-nix for secrets, restic for cloud backups, microvm for light vm's, NixOS anywhere or deploy-rs for deployments (colmena or nixops4 for interconnected nodes even). You can do complex things, and your rig or network could explode and it won't matter cause you can rebuild and deploy to a new/repaired machine in minutes. Your backups could explode and all you'd lose is state.
All that is easy to have in Nix today - I know cause I literally just switched and did most of it with like 0 experience. I migrated my fairly complex setup 1 to 1 and gained a ton of useful stuff in Nix, whereas with Guix it wasn't even possible (I would have to trim or package / translate tons of stuff), nor would it have been easy, and all the cool stuff I gained with nix is either difficult or non-existent on guix, let alone mature.
I am in favor of more options, always
Nix happens to also set you up with a working build environment so if a program doesn't expose the necessary options to manage it the way you want, I bet Codex would have no trouble patching it as part of your nix config.
Microsoft isn't what it used to be. Maybe soon it will be called Microsoft/OpenAI, then OpenAI/Microsoft, then just OpenAI.
It's a bad sign that they chose NixOS instead of something boring like Debian, though (and it seems France, too.) Makes me suspect that this is being driven by a single strong personality who will eventually lose interest or even rugpull support, leaving the project in disarray and a poster child for criticizing doing anything but buying Microsoft as European flakiness. On the other hand, I'm happy that it will involve money being put into NixOS.
Perhaps the real meatheads are the ones who spam threads with anti-ai memes, rather than looking at the utility of what the ai provided?
The website nixos.org talks immediately about package management, which does not help with answering if it is a viable Windows alternative. It is like saying Apt or RPM is an alternative to Windows.
Whereas you are coming to it knowing what NixOS is, so already have the context. Clearly whoever wrote NixOS.org was the same. A pretty site for people who already know what Nix is.... which is a very very common pattern for open source projects. A nice front page mantra for true believers, but useless for outsiders.
Claude actually explained it all to me but I forced it to summarise it down. That is enough for all the people on this thread, who don't know what NixOS is to see that they are pushing a Linux distro as an alternative to Windows.
Nixos.org
Probably has its uses, tried it twice myself and both times were a lot of struggling.
For me even Arch was easier to configure than Nix.
When lesser nations rally around the flag and elect dictators we have meetings and consultations.
How would you role out the same config to thousands of Arch systems? Sure Valve does it, but I still think that is a "bolted on top" solution. Bootc could be another option though, but Nix solves reproducibility more elegantly, imho. Nix went back and asked "how can this be done better", where many modern solutions took what was already there.
And if I were to break it, i could just reboot into the previous system snapshot.
And I haven't read 1000 pages of docs - from my experience id doubt it even has that many docs.
When you have that many users, you don't really configure individual system, you deploy up some per-configured module or setup.
Repeatable builds also make troubleshooting lots easier - and you can hand those task to front-tier helpdesk staffs.
Sounds like a good replacement
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> why more businesses don't rely on Apple products knowing the simplicity of just buying an iMac and adding some apps to it?
Apple is a US company first and foremost and US has become unreliable. It has nothing to do with simplicity or productivity if reliability is in question. What use is a Mac if it can be subject to US sanctions resulting in App Store being shutdown for you or your entire Country and apps/services stop working overnight?
I definitely like that future, but it should be built now
Doing well in Australia and New Zealand too. Aside from Taco the only big headwind is memory.
Here issue is not of whether Apple is reliable or not. Issue is unreliability of USA. If US Government decides Apple Store should be banned in Country X, Apple cannot do anything about it but abide by the decree.
What businesses need is management services and business applications. Those exist for Apple as well, but two significant headwinds: 1) inertia of essentially every major business on earth using MS Active Directory means there are enormous support and ecosystem benefits, and 2) cost.
However, a lot of apps are unstable. Support is horrible to non existent for some. No refunds even when the app doesn't work at all directly after install. Most professional apps have a buy price AND a subscription price at this point. Most actually working apps are not apple exclusive these days.
It's definitely not as green over there as some apple people make it out to be.
I still like my iPad. The pen is amazing, and the sound is so good I use it as TV without extra speakers in my caravan. but I usually don't recommend it to anyone. Especially no one that has any form of fixed budget.
I would probably just get a cheap old one if I had known that I won't use most music/3d software on it anyway. I wouldn't have spent so much extra for the big hard drive, etc.
https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs...
My guess--and this is only a guess, I can't make enough sense to do anything more--is that the novel part may have something to do with the "credit duration" stuff.
Aren't this take like 3 additional minutes (including search of how to do this)?
My only concern is that this is mostly just the result of one very influential company. If they turn evil on us...
What about the performance (especially the bottom 1% frame time)? What about availability of those games in free online game libraries?
By allowing a lot of people who are willing to take a performance-hit to transition to Linux, they sow the grass-roots necessary for the game studios to release native games on Linux.
So it took decades to understand that things aren't working and then investment from multi-billion company to finally start getting anywhere.
Meanwhile on Windows you can play today, could play 10 years ago, could 20 years ago. That should answer how it's still in business. It just works.
Also "a lot of games benchmark better" - some games. And then some games don't work at all. And some games work with minor or significant issues. Which is not a slight against Wine and Proton as it's not an easy task.
Are people really making hundred-pages thesises in Word?
I suppose it is not that bad if you don't have a lot of charts/pictures/formulas, but still...
LaTeX absolutely sucks for proofing. Typos end up being buried in tags, and you end up with a document that looks pretty but possibly not fully edited.
If you are collaborating with advisors, they may wish to add comments to your copy as you work through your thesis. There is no clean way to do this in a TeX source file, so the only way to do this would be to export your work-in-progress into a DOCX, and then work your changes back into your source.
Versioning-by-hand sucks balls. When you’re approaching various deadlines with other obligations at hand, all open-source kumbaya ideas go out the window and you just make do.
For your manuscript_final_FINAL_v2.docx file, manual layout tuning ends up being not too bad and likely takes less time than troubleshooting LaTeX which might not have as much documentation.
As long as they use it for actual calculations, and not to maintain tables full of data.
Word is good for collaborative editing, but not very convenient for version control (and version control is very important when using AI assistance). So lately my strategy is to draft in Markdown, then copy over to Word once the draft is at a point that I might be okay sharing it with collaborators.
Most teams in ATLAS TDAQ/HLT, used Word templates with similar fonts, or Framemaker.
Take for example the USA. The entire electoral system is "winner takes all". Duverger's law [0] tells us that this will lead to a two-party system, as opposed to proportional representation, which tends to create truly multi-party governments.
I believe many of the current problems in US politics are in fact side-effects of the winner takes all electoral system. Each election, the only two choices are "candidate chosen by Republican Party" or "candidate chosen by Democratic Party". As such, elected officials are basically forced to first convince the members of each party to support them, which often leads to Trump-like strategies of "alienate half the country in order to please the other half", because that's a good strategy to get the party nomination, which is, in a two-party system, is basically a necessary condition to get elected.
On top that, news media and social networks have figured out that tapping into the human tribal instinct and framing politics as an 'Us vs Them' conflict sells more ads then being neutral, so the media ecosystem will tend to aggravate this two-party system.
> No matter how toxic you are, you can amass support at the speed of light.
That's also not true either. Toxicity leads to backlash. You can see this with Trump, but also with DHH claiming "everyone loves me", after his "let's kill wolves" blog entry: https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a
Wait till AI driven job losses really start to mount. Nothing divides people faster than an empty stomach. The republicans are leaving a poison pill - they will profit from AI and when democrats win and the job losses really start to hit hard, the democrats will be left holding the blame bucket. Obviously they are not exactly crying hoarse for AI safeguards/job protections either because national security/donors etc.
Now, in theory, these taxes are spent for the benefit of the taxpayers, in a philosophical tradition that can be traced back to at least the French revolution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen [1], and possibly earlier (the "no taxation without representation" [2] of the American Revolution, possibly other examples I'm unaware of). However, in practice, the ruling class has been known to help itself to that sweet, sweet tax revenue [3][4], and if we look at history, governments such as the Bourbon monarchy/Ancien Regime [5] whose claim to legitimacy rested not on "the will of the people" but "the divine right of kings" would do things like extort money from the populace to pay for foreign wars merely because their belief system held that the will of God was that everyone did whatever the King wanted, whether or not it appeared to be good for them.
We can compare modern governments with modern corporations - both will take your money and in return give you a service (you pay taxes and get police + an army to protect you, courts to resolve disputes, etc, you pay a Spotify/Netflix subscription and get access to streaming audiovisual content), but the modern corporation can't really force you to take that deal - Spotify can't put a gun to your head and force you to pay your subscription, while the government does force you to pay your taxes.
As such, if you believe that any transaction that is not freely consented to by both parties is abusive, then all modern governments are, by virtue of forcing people to pay taxes, inherently abusive.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_M...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representa...
[3] (in French) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_des_emplois_fictifs_de...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy_corruption_tri...
(They’re not.)
Some minor exclusions apply, eg hygiene products can't be returned after they've been opened.
During the reflection period, you may open the packaging. You may try or fit the product, just like in a normal store. But you are not allowed to do more than what is needed to judge the product. For instance, you can try pants. But you cannot wear the pants for several days and then return it. If you do this anyway and the product loses value? Then the seller may charge you the damage. The seller needs to inform you of this before you buy the product.
https://consument.acm.nl/aankoop-dienst-annuleren/bedenktijd
I have sent back products within the 14 days, including smartphones that I tried and decided that I don't like it. Some sellers also extend the 14 days to 30 days.
Changing the terms later is a completely valid point though and it should be possible to reject any updated terms IMO.
Your belief in US exceptionalism is interesting. Even more so, because it is so obvious that the power that will soon overtake the US economically is very likely to fill that void. But they will also get all the benefits of that role and the US will slowly lose them.
In fact, they have already been stepping in the US' former shoes. Some EU leaders mentioned to Zelensky that the only reason that Russia hasn't used nukes against Ukraine is because China said 'no'. In better (depending on perspective) times, it would have been the US as its role of world leader/police to enforce such implicit rules.
It is true that China is currently supporting Russia, but it's mostly of their interest to drain NATO and increase their power over Eurasia. Well, thanks to Trump they proceeding very fast. Or as the Chinese like to say "Trump the nation builder".
Why didn't Europe go to war with Russia then or start building military forces to deter another Russian war in Europe once Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014? Russia actually invaded them I believe a long time ago in the 1920s or 1940s under the authoritarian and evil communist regime.
I am happy that we are increasing spending and building up our own industry now. But it was far to late and it was fair for US presidents to criticize Europe for it. Note though that this happened as early as Bush and the 2% norm was established under Obama. Mark Rutte just sold the 2% to Trump as Trump's own win (initially during Trump I) to keep the US on board.
The current 3.5% is still the same 2%. It's some weasel wording about investing 1.5% in infrastructure that benefits the military as well. But you can put pretty much under that umbrella. It was purely to appease Trump. Though a lot of countries are going above 2% anyway due to the increasing Russian threat.
>This has to be a joke. There is no way anyone on this planet is so deluded and misinformed.
No kidding. Donald Trump just opened the gate.
Trump stood at the lectern of the UN and in an utterly insane, deranged, self-aggrandizing speech (again, just another day in the insane idiocracy that the US has become, and it isn't even notable, the decline so severe and accelerating), boasted about looting the resources of Venezuela. Boasted about his assault on the ICC. Two-bit, shithole banana republic junta type horseshit. A worldwide embarrassment.
The US is repeatedly and proudly engaged in wantonly illegal piracy at sea. It boasts about the textbook definition of terrorism.
The US has done more to encourage nuclear proliferation in the last two years than in all of history. It has taught that everyone needs to get nuclear weapons, and many of them need to be pointed at the US. It has pushed the notion that might makes right, and if you have the ability you can steal and rampage whatever you want, in a lawless world.
Your claim that the US is holding the gates is absolutely perverse, and your worldview is most certainly some US exceptionalism bullshit. From the American ocean to the American ocean, crossing all of Americas on planet America, in a solar system filled with Americas, the US of A is by far the world's biggest danger, and it is rapidly devolving. Time to use the Supreme Intelligence (SI! I told my boy here and he liked it!) to find an answer!
And just to be clear, this isn't all on Trump. He's a symptom, not the disease. This sort of idiocracy garbage utterly infects all corners of the US, and it keeps sloshing to the surface.
America isn't a fallen empire (if indeed it ever was an empire), nor does Donald Trump existing all of a sudden make everyone else stupid or something. Just because you disagree with someone's politics doesn't make their entire country an idiocracy, nor does it all of a sudden lower the IQs of everyone else.
> is precisely why the Dutch government is doing this
They are just following Trump's lead in decoupling from dependencies like we are from China (and a few others).
> And for that matter, it's why all American companies are going to find their reach shrink. Visa and Mastercard are worldwide systems whose days are numbered, for instance. The US banking system is being ejected everywhere it is found.
No that won't happen. Also your assertion about Visa and Mastercard are just incorrect. They may be disrupted by technology if they fail to adapt, but it's not because Europeans don't want American money for example. I go to Europe all the time, at a minimum once/year for about two weeks and my wife and I spend $20,000 or $30,000 or something and believe me you guys love it when I swipe my credit cards. In fact, every time I go to Europe I see American Express more and more accepted.
Nobody is rejecting or ejecting the US banking system except maybe some bad actors but nobody cares about them.
> But Trump is objectively a profoundly stupid person.
I don't think you can be a profoundly stupid person and still be the president. There's a minimum amount of not being stupid you have to have in order to run a campaign, hire people, make decisions, and more.
> Aren't Americans just unbelievably ashamed at how pathetic this loser is, or that he lies -- usually in the cause of pushing his greatness -- with every other word?
Maybe you should question why you feel so strongly about this yet the citizens of the wealthiest country in the world with many of the best companies and institutions in the world feel differently. You should maybe question why groups like the AfD are gaining shares in election. You can coddle yourself by chalking it up to just Russian propaganda or something, but that isn't going to do you any good.
> Seeing Xi mog this pathetic chimp yet again was amazing stuff. The world is yours, China.
It's a lot easier to say stuff like this when you are coming (I assume though if not the point will change slightly in form but not substance) from a place of safety and have no stake in the fight. If the US and China were to go to war it would be devastating for both countries. Tens or hundreds of thousands might die. Maybe a little pomp and diplomacy can help avoid that confrontation? It's not like the Dutch are going to be dying on beaches in Taiwan so maybe let's let the folks who have a stake actually do the talking yea?
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What other place do you know of whose context is the same as Quebec?
You'd think "no lolis" would be reasonable. It falls apart when people look 14 into 50s, to you and your local police, but not to themselves.
Where did we get this idea that federated instances should never block anything? Even warez sites have rules.
I'm not sure, but the OP was postulating that Forgejo instances could federate to solve the problem that the Dutch government runs its own instance to develop its software (including using AI extensively) but wants to engage with the wider community so is currently hosting things on Codeberg's centralised instance of Forgejo, and Codeberg's administrators hate AI.
Adding federation doesn't solve that problem, it just moves it one level up. To collaborate with the Dutch government, you either need to directly register on their site, or set up an entire copy of Forgejo, publicly hosted, so you can federate your one-user instance with them, or you need to find a different instance that someone else hosts, and be at the mercy of that instance's admins, who may be even more cruel and capricious than Codeberg's.
What I predict is a future codeberg.org/about saying
code.overheid.nl Suspended (slopfondlers)
- https://codeberg.org/forgejo/forgejo/issues/59 ("[FEAT] implement federation")
We can do big federated/distributed development with git at the project level. See the linux kernel.
If the goal is fancy UI then there are alternatives.
If the goal is to do a big multi-git with cross repo issue tracker, then that implies either:
- you're a public site for random repos like codeberg
- you're a special purpose forge and identity management is a big issue you want full control over.
IMO - For this to work, they should go with the latter and not try to offload identity into some federated scheme.
Radicle seems better in that regards, but instead is on top of their own cryptocurrency, which comes with its own issues.
Personally my best hope is still "real" federation across centralized services, ala ForgeFed, but ideally we can make all these approaches interoperate in the future, that would be really awesome.
I think the comparison is fair enough considering that self-hosted would work sort of similar. In that you'd rent the physical space for your hardware (and possibly the hardware itself) at local suppliers, and not actually have it in your basement.
Is this "mostly developed with AI" in your opinion? Not to mention the fact the policy leaves it open to interpretation is part of the problem...
But still, we wouldn't be allowed to use codeberg because "generative ai" was used significantly for most lines of code?
and yet we seem to be convinced that English is the appropriate spec language of the modern times
It's legal certainty principle and equality before the law principle and also prohibition of discrimination principle.
For the law to be lawful (weird, but it's a thing, right) it should satisfy certain criteria. Me, being subject to the law should be able to predict whether my actions are allowed or not when I plan to do or not do them. If I can't predict the outcome of my actions, the law isn't valid. One of the outcomes of it is being able to read the law -- it's published and it's comprehensible, it has advance notice, etc.
If the rule says "don't host LLM generated code", but everybody hosts LLM generated code and then I say mean things about one of the people providing the hosting and suddenly I'm deplatformed for hosting LLM generated code, then I'm not deplatformed for LLM generated code, I'm deplatformed for saying mean things about people with fragile ego. Or being part of a specific group. You are often explicitly prohibited to make certain decisions based on belonging to a certain group (religious, ethnic, sexual, trade union, health, criminal record based), but it could happen that somehow the outcome of the shadow policy correlates with those. Since we don't know the shadow policy and the stated policy doesn't seem to be applied equally, this is not great.
See example about weed in a different comment.
>how is this bad, in Codeberg's case, practically speaking?
They look silly for stating it and not following (loss of credibility), then once they suddenly start following it, there will be different interpretations, including "I'm banned because I'm $protected_thing_that_you_should_not_be_banned_for", which is bad press.
This is ultimately a matter of framing though. You can equally argue that (a) that person shouldn't be deplatformed because others' LLM use is tolerated or (b) all of them should be deplatformed including that person. In the latter case (b) the person who said mean things still experiences the same outcome, but by your logic this is just. Ultimately whether the others get deplatformed doesn't directly affect them, so what's the real difference here?
> > how is this bad
> they look silly
> bad press
This seems highly subjective & ultimately not really bad by any metric that matters.
They run a service: they could impose limits on the number of submissions, builds, branches, scans, etc, and give additional usage credits to the large community projects they want to encourage.
The LLM revolution has proven that if you have enough institutional investors, the Berne Convention doesn't apply to you, but it's sofar unclear whether that exemption from international law extends to small EU-based non-profits.
They're not a free for all, they do KYCP (know your customer's projects) with an initial assumption of good faith.
Also they're a voluntary society you can join by contributing money. They're not a charity as such, more like a group of people pooling resources, and also offering them to people outside the group on a good faith basis.
The current solution solves none of the issues, AND pisses off most sane people (mostly because their arguments are fabrications). They dropped the cake and shit on it too.
That's a strict policy to you?!
Literally the first "informal guidelines" (subject to change of course) states:
> Projects who have an active community that cares about and maintains the software
You can use LLMs for development + fulfill this requirement, contrary to popular belief.
They want to get rid of slop projects and vibe coders, not any project that has any developer that used any LLM. But again, requires you to read through the actual text to actually get their intention here.
https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/src/commit/96fac426a32d1ba...
I have read it. This effectively narrows down the use of AI drastically IMO. Which is what I said.
This effectively limits it to stuff like code completion and using it as a chat assistant and doing some medium level refactors.
They should have just completely banned it. As the ambiguity itself causes problems. Even if you use LLMs maybe say 25% of the time, sooner or later that means that a significant portion of your code base is AI generated.
> They want to get rid of slop projects and vibe coders, not any project that has any developer that used any LLM. But again, requires you to read through the actual text to actually get their intention here.
I am not a vibe coder (I am a software dev with almost 20 years experience) and am using Heavy LLM assistance (I am running Qwen 3.8 locally) for some of my projects. I am making sure the code output is decent, well documented, has tests etc. Sure what I am doing is something betweeen "vibe coding" and "proper development" but there would be no way for me in the few hours an evening to even get to the stage I would be at in some of them without LLM assistance.
I would not be able to use codeberg for hosting my project under their rules.
Huh. For all the "traditional", "organic", "hand crafted", and other "things" I've encountered that isn't one of them. I wonder why no one is advertising fair trade hydropower stone ground organic flour?
The act of verifying that parcel is delivered, that the grain is correctly ground, or that the container is up to spec is far easier than the act of delivering/grinding/making in the first place (and in the latter case, there's perhaps even an argument to be had that the modernized process eases verification).
For a lot of coding, this is simply not the case. And so people will retort that that's fine, LLMs will help with verification and maintenance too. I think you're seriously misguided – you're accidentally trying to turn human prose into a programming language, and it's a terrible terrible idea!
At any rate, I find it extremely worrying that people like you keep reiterating this point as if it's a fact. If it's true, then surely we'll very soon see the evidence. The way you speak of the "near future" with certainty, as if everyone agrees, gives me the same sour taste as cryptobros or MLM conmen. Yuck.
And yes, they both have moats that will take AI at least 5 years to erode, at which point I'll just retire.
Regarding the dog shit code comment: this is the problem with your whole line of thinking. Customers don't care if the code is dog shit. They care if they get value from the product.
As I mentioned, there will still be some demand for devs who code by hand, similar to how theres still demand for blacksmiths who make ornamental weapons.
If you're right, the evidence will bear that out. Stop evangelizing. It's insufferable. And it's paradoxical that so many who believe this technology to be absolutely world-changing also feel that the technology needs to be pushed onto people actively. It reminds me of religious people ("my god is all-powerful, but if you meaningless mortal insult him he'll be mightily upset").
Despite this, there is a reality that LLMs for coding can create pretty decent results fast. There is something real and usable hidden in all that mess. It's like the dot com bubble in some ways: the bubble died with all the overhyped "x on the web" BS that had no real substance, but the web itself stayed. This time around, LLMs and agents will stick around as tools, but the hype will likely die a loud, messy death.
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How do you think currencies are established? By accepting chickens and cows in lieu of legal tender? That’s precisely the meaning of legal tender. This is the exact analogue thereof: information is required as value is required, information and value are required in a mandated standardised form, other forms are rejected a priori.
It takes three really nice and cleverly designed things that are all very easy to use separately. Then you put those things into the hands of smart, bored and slightly undercompensated people and divide those people into four separate departments so they don't ever talk with each other.
Then you introduce a fourth thing into the mix, let it ferment for a while and make sure some people dealing with the first three leave the building and are replaced with total imbeciles who have no idea what they are doing and also never say no to any silly idea of their boss.
Then you ask to change something. Anything really. And it for some magical reason unbeknown to anybody involved at this point takes a few years.
I use Markdown + Pandoc compiling to a .docx as a workaround, but merging changes back is manual.
Comments can be added with ‘%’. Just make sure to have a linebreak at every sentence and it’s cleaner than anything. Services like overleaf also exist for collaboration.
You can use any versioning system you want. From git to dropbox, its plaintext.
I do agree that layout can be very time consuming, but it helps once you learn to not care about it till the absolute end of working on the content.
It's kind of the same issue that FOSS enthusiasts often miss regarding other things, eg. most gamers wouldn't waste their time fiddling around with WINE settings to get things to run in Linux, the solution wasn't to tell them to just install something extra and do things different, it was to improve the infrastructure such that very little fiddling is needed in most cases.
People also used it to collect COVID data during the pandemic, and a lot of data was lost because someone accidentally opened it in an older version of Excel.
It's one of my pet peeves. Excel should not ever be used to maintain data. It's a fancy calculator.
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ishouldnotbutk8's message was mostly a joke since your argument would work with 15 days instead of 2. And yes, customers should be protected* against altering the deal.
Especially that it is so so common now, with the wide-spread of IT. Companies just push out malicious updates and changes in terms and conditions.
* they probably already are, but not many people try to bring remote downgrade cases to courts
The US does not recognize the ICC. There is no such thing as supranational law that isn't enforced by military power.
This American exceptionalism answer has always been amazing to me.
No other country gives two shits if the US "recognizes" the ICC. As a serial warcrime committing nation, of course the US doesn't want it having legitimacy, as it terroristically blows up random boats and schools full of children.
And of course they also want to protect their serial warcrime best pal Israel in the process.
See, the thing about the ICC is that the countries that do recognize it carry out its warrants. Netanyahu can traipze around warcrime nations like the US, but he can't visit Europe, for instance. Because those countries do believe in the ICC. No one is sending military arrest teams to Israel.
How is this remotely the US' say? I have yet to hear an American explain their belief that they get to force others to not have the ICC that doesn't sound like vile devolved, "but we get to murder children!" horseshit. Yes, I get that you're madly in love with committing war crimes, but understand that you're the pariah. Everyone else doesn't have to worsen their standards to the catastrophically low bar you accept. as your pedophile kleptocracy drags your further and further into the abyss.
That's irrelevant. What is this "other country" going to do about it? The only way to impose international law is by credible military force.
By the way, America isn't exceptional at all in that regard. China, Russia, India don't recognize the ICC either. That's more than 2/3 of the world.
Wow, sounds toothless. Pretty weird then the extraordinary lengths the US is going to in efforts to destroy it, right? I mean, these two things almost seem incredibly stupid to claim simultaneously. The US has expended enormous political and financial capital trying to destroy the ICC, all because it's so irrelevant and doesn't matter. You know, not unlike how the various administrative pedos and criminals constantly talk about how little Canada matters by talking about it constantly, 24/7, every fucking day. It's pathetic business.
The ICC is an agreement between the good countries of the world to hold human garbage to account. There is no surprise why this upsets human garbage and busted, shithole cultures.
> America isn't exceptional at all in that regard.
Oh, it absolutely is exceptional. Ignoring that Russia is also a universal shitheel problem for the planet, and there are clear reasons why it doesn't like such organizations, China and India have done nothing to thwart or attack the ICC. Nothing. China has overtly stated that they support its mission and disagree with attacks against it. Because China is an infinitely more civilized country that the US is. Which is why the US is flailing and grasping as a fallen empire shithole relegated to the dustbin of history.
BTW - did you see when Trump thought having a bunch of bombers doing afterburner runs would somehow scare Xi? Pathetic banana republic strongman garbage of a busted idiocracy. Pretty hilarious when that soft-handed weaking imbecile winced at the scary noises, mogged out by Xi who again pointed out that the US is a fallen shithole, all while Trump is showing him the autopen while the entire world laughs at how unbelievably pathetic this all is. But this pathetic business goes hard for tens of millions of incredibly stupid Americans that still fall for this grifter rapist.
Which ones? I'm sure there's a very good reason for each so let's walk through them with civility.
> The US is led by a vile rapist abomination that openly threatens "annihilation"
Trump is probably a rapist but our justice system has failed to prosecute him. But the memory of justice is rather long. He may yet get his day. Separately yea who cares about the annihilation threats. Iran has been doing that for a long time. If they don't like hearing it maybe they should stop too.
> The US is repeatedly and proudly engaged in wantonly illegal piracy at sea. It boasts about the textbook definition of terrorism.
What examples do you have of wanton piracy?
> The US has done more to encourage nuclear proliferation in the last two years than in all of history.
I'd argue Russia has done more there by invading Ukraine.
> It has taught that everyone needs to get nuclear weapons, and many of them need to be pointed at the US.
No nobody has been taught that. But they have been taught that if they step out of line and don't have enough of a deterrent like North Korea, that if they try and build nuclear weapons they'll be on the receiving end of sanctions, and then if that isn't a good enough incentive we'll come bomb them and stop them. You are welcome.
> It has pushed the notion that might makes right, and if you have the ability you can steal and rampage whatever you want, in a lawless world.
Might does make right though. International law is just some stuff made up largely by western nations and backed by American military power. If you have no will or ability to enforce international law, like, idk, stopping Iran from building a nuclear weapon, then the law is pointless.
> Your claim that the US is holding the gates is absolutely perverse, and your worldview is most certainly some US exceptionalism bullshit.
No, it's not perverse. I just disagree with your point of view.
> This sort of idiocracy garbage utterly infects all corners of the US, and it keeps sloshing to the surface.
Isn't it embarrassing that all these idiots are the dominant force on the planet and you have to cry to them to help you against Russia and they make much more money than your citizens? If you're going to insult Americans like this you should at least have something worth insulting us over. I do think biking culture is way better than driving, but I'm not sure about much else.
When life sucks and there's no hope, people vote for parties that promise to shake things up, not for parties that promise more of the same. That comes in two flavours: far left and far right.
Trump grew up wealthy, surrounded by handlers and supplicants obliged to glaze every statement or utterance. This led this utter dunce to believe his idiotic thoughts are pearls of wisdom offered up to an ungrateful world. Did you know there is a "B" in the word dumb? Have you ever heard of the old-timey word "groceries". Affordability is a hoax. Super intelligence!
He is a spectacularly stupid idiot, and he always has been. This isn't new. Dementia doesn't explain it.
Did you know there are tensions in Switzerland because there is a will to stop kids from learning French while they attend primary school? https://www.edi.admin.ch/fr/newnsb/CbsqmmLpkhDjQgEILMp_P
Did you know Switzerland is located in Europe and shares a border with France? Did you know people in France speak French?
Do you know where Quebec is located?
I’ve seen your kind before.
Your paranoia is typical of Quebec. You need professional help, Mon ami.
> Did you know there are tensions in Switzerland because there is a will to stop kids from learning French while they attend primary school?
I lived for a while in Zurich as well, and it was well known that kids are exiting high school being unable to speak the second language they supposedly studied.
> Do you know where Quebec is located?
Yeah, I'm in Montreal right now and have been living there for quite a while.
shocked Pikachu
They don't care if someone wastes their own resources.
Mastodon servers defederate because the people (or rather, the admins, perhaps prompted by the users) of instance A don't want anything to do with the people (who toot at the discretion and policies of the admins) of instance B.
Codeberg's AI position, as stated and voted upon, does not mention resource usage at all. That's completely invisible from the discussion. It is exclusively argued against on accord of 1) unclear copyright ownership, and 2) users have no idea what's in the code, therefore it could be full of security flaws or harmful code.
https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253
So they would not want to federate with another instance that used a lot of AI-generated code, even if it claimed an open license, even if that federation caused little-to-no usage of their CI. They would fundamentally disagree with any other instance that allowed mostly-AI-generated projects. They would therefore block such instances, if federation was a thing.
The Fediverse has the whole model backwards as a result of its design. Either individuals need to run their own instances, or identity needs to be completely ephemeral and flow through many servers as it does in Nostr. A Nostr admin can choose not to host data from a given identity, they could even use an identity whitelist, but users normally subscribe to multiple relays. In the end, the data gets through, while the relay admin can keep their own hands clean if they have a problem with the data.
Note that having this freedom does not preclude you from voluntarily signing up for blocklists. But this is an active choice, and it can’t be suddenly imposed on a set of users.
If I want to, I can opt in to any number of spam blocklists. That’s kind of the point—it’s opt in.
I think the notion persists because they are seemingly still using a DAO as the governance structure, so the organization sits on top of a cryptocurrency (is the idea of DAOs at least, in practice it isn't always so).
Radicle is self-hosted? Not sure what you mean by this.
If one doesn’t want anyone working on it to be crypto-adjacent, then I guess it wouldn’t be a good fit, but you can host and use it just fine without touching crypto yourself.
The difference is -- if I know the effective policy, I can plan better and choose a different platform in advance (if the it's option (b)).
>This seems highly subjective & ultimately not really bad by any metric that matters.
Subjective opinions matter because people act on them (more) consistently than on objective facts. I would for example act on a subjective opinion that a platform provider is a bunch of racist assholes or affiliated with r-country.
The problem is for the platform as a whole, not the individual who may or may not be punished.
Proponent: EmergingTech is gonna be amazing, it'll at revolutionize everything!
Bystander: Alright. But I'll hold off until I see actual evidence of that happening. Truly revolutionizing tech usually shows clear signs of being revolutionary, and doesn't need evangelists.
Proponent: You're gonna be left behind! Act now, or forever miss out! Here's analogies with things we know in hindsight were revolutionary.
Bystander: Those analogies are bad for these specific reasons.
Proponent: You will be proven wrong!
It's so dumb. At least you AI proponents don't post pictures of yourself with glowing laser eyes when you evangelize, so I guess that's an improvement over the cryptobros.
PS: I emphasize that I'm not claiming that the technology won't have huge effects on society. If that's your take on what I write, you have to read again.
Building the product was never the hard part. Getting it in front of people is. That will continue to be true, except the build stage will be even easier.
this is an absolutely insane take
Nope, nobody was talking about getting nukes after the invasion in 2022.
Everybody started talking about getting nukes after: (1) Trump has been threatening to leave NATO and casting doubt about upholding Article 5, so nobody is really sure if the nuclear umbrella extends to Europe anymore; and (2) Trump has threatened to invade Greenland.
Basically, nobody here trusts the US anymore, but politicians are keeping up appearances to race to scale up production capacity of arms, etc.
Trumpists will typically say "but why should the US provide the nuclear umbrella for Europe?" Which is woefully ignorant of history, the whole NATO nuclear sharing arrangement, etc. exists, because the US didn't want European countries like (West-)Germany to have their own nukes.
Isn't it embarrassing that all these idiots are the dominant force on the planet and you have to cry to them to help you against Russia and they make much more money than your citizens? If you're going to insult Americans like this you should at least have something worth insulting us over. I do think biking culture is way better than driving, but I'm not sure about much else.
Sorry, but the arrogance is perplexing. First, European countries contributed a lot more money to Ukraine than the US. Second, when the US, Ukraine, etc. signed the Budapest memorandum, they US implied that they would respond to a Russian attack.
However, when negotiating the security assurances, U.S. officials told their Ukrainian counterparts that, were Russia to violate them, the United States would take a strong interest and respond. [...] Washington did not promise unlimited support. The Budapest Memorandum contains security “assurances,” not “guarantees.” Guarantees would have implied a commitment of American military force, which NATO members have. U.S. officials made clear that was not on offer. Hence, assurances.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-care-about-ukraine-an...
And this is exactly one of the issues of the US now. It is completely reliable. Make a trade agreement and then on a whim Trump can decide to shred it again.
The funniest case was that Trump wanted to impose tariffs when Denmark wanted to send troops to Greenland... Which is an autonomous territory of Denmark.
That's not what I recall. And I also recall a lot of hand-wringing over how it was a shame that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons (in a manner of speaking).
> Basically, nobody here trusts the US anymore, but politicians are keeping up appearances to race to scale up production capacity of arms, etc.
That's not true. Internet commentators don't trust the US, but they don't represent all peoples or governments. Even the Danes trusted us enough to sign an agreement giving us perpetual military access to Greenland even if the Greenlanders declare sovereignty.
> Trumpists will typically say "but why should the US provide the nuclear umbrella for Europe?" Which is woefully ignorant of history, the whole NATO nuclear sharing arrangement, etc. exists, because the US didn't want European countries like (West-)Germany to have their own nukes.
I think you are somewhat off the mark here. Nuclear weapons are of course important, but France and the United Kingdom have them too. I guess a question you want to ask Europe is the details and history about France and the United Kingdom's own nuclear umbrellas. If they have them, why do you need American nuclear weapons? Not that I'm personally opposed to also extending ours.
For Americans (and I have various levels of agreement and disagreement) it's less about the nuclear umbrella and more about the placement and utilization of conventional forces. As you can tell with the Iran war and the early days of the Ukraine war, the United States (thanks in part to Europe) has been brow-beaten so much about (what was it, 14 countries someone said we bombed this year?) how bad America is and how awful and racist and "colonizer" America is and all that stuff that many Americans are just fed up with utilizing our military for much of anything or dealing with the problems of other countries.
I'm not, personally, because I think it would be beneficial for us to stop Russia in Ukraine, stop Iran in the Middle East, and avoid a war with China while maintaining the status quo regarding Taiwan, but you know when someone like some posters in this thread want to spend all day talking about how your country is full of idiots eventually people say, well, maybe you guys should take care of your own problems, even if it ends up worse off for everyone.
> Sorry, but the arrogance is perplexing. First, European countries contributed a lot more money to Ukraine than the US. Second, when the US, Ukraine, etc. signed the Budapest memorandum, they US implied that they would respond to a Russian attack.
You say that like there should have been an expectation that the US contributed the same or more? This expectation you have, that you created for yourself, is of your own making.
Second, let's not forget the UK also signed that memorandum and while Europe was busy denying the US and UK's warnings of an imminent Russian invasion, the US and UK were running 24/7 airlift operations to get supplies to Ukraine, provided intelligence, and more. We did respond to the Russian attack. There's no requirement for US forces to respond.
"Trusted". Christ, I guess you subscribe to the Dennis Reynolds "implication" style of coercion. Recall that Denmark readied blood supplies and literally prepared troops for a US invasion. From an ally. "Trusted". Good god.
No one "trusts" the US. It is a worldwide danger, where a pedophile rapist kleptocracy tries to export its profound stupidity to better nations.
In the end, Denmark reaffirmed an existing agreement from 1951. The one that already saw the US having military bases on Greenland per the alliance. They not only broadened it from just the US, they explicitly restricted it such that the US can only maintain such bases if they remain in NATO.
They took an existing agreement and reaffirmed it with new conditions. So Trump, Mr. We're Pulling out of NATO, basically redoubled on NATO just to have a win, where the win is just the status quo. Hilarious stuff. And this actually sells to some Americans?
When they played "Send in the clowns" for Marco Rubio to sign this new "agreement" was just poetic.
Where do you get your news from? Twitter? Because wow, every one of your take is straight from America exceptional land, and it's bizarre (I didn't respond to your other comments out of mercy, but good god you simply have no idea). The fact that Trump celebrated this agreement is because the midterms are coming up and this pathetic loser, having literally nothing to show but failure from his reign of idiocy, needed a "win".
> If they have them, why do you need American nuclear weapons?
You seem to have missed their point. There was a detente and a worldwide "order". Russia stepped out of line and almost the entire world punished them for it. The order mattered. Might does not make right, and in the rule of international law you can't just steal land or resources.
Suddenly Trump not only heralds Putin and wants to cement his battlefield wins, through his incompetent family reps Kushner (jesus christ) and Witkoff, he continually praises Putin and justifies his aggression, constantly repeating Russia's absurd justifications for this foolish war. Then Trump engages in the same behaviour on behalf of the US, stealing the resources of Venezuela, and openly threatening Cuba. And I guarantee that Trump has repeatedly talked to his drunken halfwit SecWar about invading Canada. They openly threatened invading Greenland, just because they want it.
Right now, every capable country should be getting nuclear weapons. Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Brazil, Spain, and on and on. Putin tested the waters and Trump redoubled them and affirmed that there is no international rules, and everyone should be willing to murder billions of people. Any Americans -- having lived a life of peace, security, comfort and affluence -- who think this improves their lot is impossibly fucking stupid. All of history says uncountable Americans are going to die because of this foolish imbecile.
"Art of the deal"
You seem to have missed their point. There was a detente and a worldwide "order". Russia stepped out of line and almost the entire world punished them for it. The order mattered.
Exactly this. It seems that the US has forgotten what soft power, alliances, rules-based world order means. You have the power because you have allies, because you can hold others to rules (and mostly keep up the appearance that you obey the rules yourself), etc. Initially, you can benefit from abusing that position, but it is short-term only. Your allies will form new alliances (e.g. Canada getting closer to the EU), stop buying your weapons, wean themselves of your products (this very news item), etc. The problem with incompetent people like Trump and his administration is that they only see the benefits of the short-term abuse, but not the terrible harm they do to themselves and the rest of the world long-term.
Yea interesting how they're so much more ready to go fight the US than fight Russia. But if you want to argue there's no trust there then you certainly can't trust our military being in Europe or backstopping NATO so if your goal is to dissolve NATO because of some arguing over, frankly, a lack of European defense investment in an area that is critical to American security (you own it you need to secure it) then well that's up to Europeans to decide.
I'm ignoring all the other stuff because it's boring and uninteresting. No I don't get my news from Twitter. I don't use social media.
> You seem to have missed their point.
No I'm debating their point. There's a difference.
> Suddenly Trump not only heralds Putin and wants to cement his battlefield wins, through his incompetent family reps Kushner (jesus christ) and Witkoff, he continually praises Putin and justifies his aggression, constantly repeating Russia's absurd justifications for this foolish war.
There are two large problems with this.
First, Europe has no ability to engage with Putin, and if Kushner and Witkoff are the people he will see then we should try for some manner of diplomacy even if the people that are sent aren't the ones you would prefer.
Second, while I fully support Ukraine regaining all of the territory it has lost, if Ukraine is unable to re-take the territory and Russia is unable to progress, it's stupid for all these soldiers to just go and die for no reason. If we can stop the war completely, for example, with Ukraine ceding this land, that's up to them but we should at least explore options and try to bring an end to the war.
> Then Trump engages in the same behaviour on behalf of the US, stealing the resources of Venezuela, and openly threatening Cuba. And I guarantee that Trump has repeatedly talked to his drunken halfwit SecWar about invading Canada.
I don't agree with how we've approached Canada.
Venezuela and Cuba are entirely separate things. Happy to discuss why if you want.
> They openly threatened invading Greenland, just because they want it.
It was a dumb negotiating tactic but it's important to us that it is defended to our satisfaction.
> Right now, every capable country should be getting nuclear weapons. Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Brazil, Spain, and on and on.
If you're in favor of nuclear proliferation then sure. But it doesn't include just the "good" countries. It also means Israel gets to ramp up its nuclear forces, Saudi Arabia gets nuclear weapons, Argentina can get nuclear weapons, and anyone else on your naughty list. So we will further double down on a more dangerous world and you're advocating for further breakdowns of international law.
Ehm, Russia didn't invade Danish territory. The US was threatening to invade Danish territory.
First, Europe has no ability to engage with Putin, and if Kushner and Witkoff are the people he will see then we should try for some manner of diplomacy even if the people that are sent aren't the ones you would prefer.
Putin only wants them because they are weak and can be played.
It was a dumb negotiating tactic but it's important to us that it is defended to our satisfaction.
It was not a negotiation tactic. They already had an agreement for over half a century that they could scale up US military presence as they would like. The US has reduced presence over the years.
Trump wanted to add land like every pathetic little (wannabe) dictator. But the EU showed some teeth suggesting that the trade bazooka could be employed, country moved troops to Greenland (so it wouldn't be a clean invasion without blood). So Trump TACOed out.
If it was a negotiation tactic it is bloody stupid ("art of the deal" I guess). Aside from getting a worse deal then before, as a side-effect many European countries that were planning to buy US arms are now switching to European options.
If you're in favor of nuclear proliferation then sure. But it doesn't include just the "good" countries. It also means Israel gets to ramp up its nuclear forces, Saudi Arabia gets nuclear weapons, Argentina can get nuclear weapons, and anyone else on your naughty list. So we will further double down on a more dangerous world and you're advocating for further breakdowns of international law.
Yes, and that was exactly my point earlier, the Trump and the US opened pandora's box. He disturbed the equilibrium by threatening to leave the NATO/not respecting article 5, by threatening to attack its own allies, by yelling Zelensky out of the White House. This sends ripples all over the world and Europe, Canada, and East Asian countries get the message "we cannot trust the US as an ally anymore", which leads to proliferation and probably more wars. It's very likely that Putin will try some sort of attack on NATO countries soon, just to test how firm Trump's commitments are. This would never have happened if he didn't weaken NATO. It's understandable that Poland gets nervous and wants to be able to MAD Russia.