Ask HN: Who's still keeping a DOS machine up because the business depends on it?

hckrnws

Ask HN: Who's still keeping a DOS machine up because the business depends on it?

108

12h

by mlaux

Do you currently work with or know anyone who is still using:

* dBase/Clipper/CLARION/Paradox/other DOS RAD environments on period hardware to run business processes?

* CNC mills/spectrometers/microscopes/other industrial instruments controlled by ISA cards (either bespoke or standards like GPIB)?

* Anything with a parallel port dongle?

If so, I'd be very interested in hearing your experience here, or feel free to send me an email at the address in my profile. I'm not trying to sell anything, just doing some research for an idea around keeping these going on modern hardware.

freeli
289h
A certain nuclear power plant had a Windows NT 4.0 machine running as late as 2007. The reason is interesting.
The machine's purpose was to report status of the control rods that mitigate nuclear reactions. Basically, "are the rods inserted, and if so, how many / how far?". I want to emphasize that this was reporting only, NOT control.
The original software was written back in the 80's, when the plant was originally commissioned, for AmigaOS. Of course, it's hard to buy Amigas anymore, and the original one died long ago (nobody remembers when).
So in the mid '90s, the utility purchased an AmigaOS emulator that ran on Windows NT 4.0, which was current at the time. The emulator (IIRC) was developed by a firm in the UK. The firm went out of business sometime in the late '90s. The control rod monitoring software ran under this emulator on top of NT4.
Windows NT 4.0 was the last OS to allow the emulation software direct access to the physical hardware that produced the status signal. Later versions of Windows abstracted the hardware access away, and the monitoring software broke. Because the emulation company had gone belly up, there was no way to fix the incompatibility.
So the utility had a choice: get new hardware/software certified (by NRC?), or keep doing what they were doing with the software (and hardware) that they had. They chose the latter.
So this is how, in 2007, during a tour of the facility, I stumbled across a Pentium 1 system running an AmigaOS emulator on Windows NT 4.0 that was responsible for displaying the status of the control rods of a nuclear power plant.
Spare hardware for this setup was purchased off of eBay and stocked on an adjacent shelf.
1. CobaltFire
  09h
  Having worked on nuclear plants (as a reactor operator) around that time this doesn't surprise me in the least.
  Thats far more advanced than the systems I worked with, one of which reported rod position via resistance measurement on a brushed cylinder (one for angular and one for depth).
  Cleaning and calibrating those was a constant maintenance item every time the reactor was shut down.
2. Froedlich
  47h
  A friend works for an airline as a flight simulator tech. Their entire software stack, including the compiler and OS, is FAA-certified.
  Then their ancient Honeywell(?) mainframes reached end-of-life they scouted for compatible hardware, of which there was none. The cost of certifying new software, plus the time involved, was astronomical. So, after consulting with the FAA, they paid a hardware company to clone the ancient mainframes in modern silicon. The FAA signed off on it, and they had all-new computers - much smaller than the originals - running the old stack.
shakna
09h
dBase, MS-DOS 3.x, not using industrial anything. And as its a front of house tally machine, there's literally zero incentive to ever upgrade it. Downtime is measured in the yearly reboot, but there are non-operational business hours, so everything is just scheduled around that.
We've already got it running on modern hardware. It's running under qemu. And the dBase stuff gets ripped out and sent to a REST server for broad monitoring and so on.
We... Have one small oddity? There's a tape backup system, that throws everything through the soundcard. (Sound Blaster only.)
Would be nice if onboarders didn't see dBase and just throw everything at AI instead of actually learning the skills they'll need when data migrations happen. But that's a people problem that can't be solved with tech.
Felger
09h
Not DOS, but I sold a '99 HP computer running win98 last month, to replace an identical failed system. It was used to control a 50 meters long custom industrial paint booth line for special equipments (like 57" rims). Luckily, their HDD was OK. Urged them to make a few sector-to-sector copies of it on a few spare HDD. This $100 sell surely has prevented this business from massive bills or even going bankrupt in the meantime from production loss.
M95D
02h
I had a functional STA Compact [1] coagulation analyzer until 2022. It ran a customized DOS version on a ITX computer board that was integrated into the analyzer. UI was in text mode and used the keyboard only. It had no mouse. The video in the link shows the UI for a few seconds at the end. We kept it functional as a backup and even used it a few days when the replacement broke down. It was one of the best analyzers I ever used.
The newer version of that anaylzer, STA Compact Max [2] has mostly the same analyzer hardware, but newer ITX board inside. It runs Windows (XP, 7, 10...). Bugs galore.
I know labs that used a Beckman-Coulter HmX hematology analyzer [3] until 2015 or so. That machine is attached to an external MS-DOS computer via a very thick cable and an ISA board. The cable connector looked a bit like a 68-pin SCSI-3. The software used VGA graphics mode.
```
  [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kti6Zdyp8dQ
  [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJan25vkpEA
  [3] https://www.soriaudio.com/index.php?mid=m_eqp&document_srl=62138152
```
MarkSweep
09h
A company I used to work at still ships a piece of hardware with an Intel 186 microcontroller in it. The compilers are 16-bit DOS applications and the tool to program the DIP packages with the program was also a DOS application. I’m not sure what the physical interface between the programmer and computer was.
_trampeltier
07h
Siemens Field PG. It is a rugged Notebook for PLC programmers. At least in the last version until last year, the "Field PG M6" was possible to buy the Notebook with a special serial port for old S5 PLCs ant the Step5 software came in a special DosBox version with it.
The Field PG has also another special port called "MPI/Profibus" for S7 PLCs, 2 Ethernet ports and a DVD drive.
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/109766662/d...
andix
09h
I had to keep an old clipper/dbase application running until recently. It worked perfectly seamless with vdos (vdos.info). It's commercial software, but very reasonably priced. Dosbox is another alternative, but didn't work as well with printing and I think also wasn't able to do row locking of dBASE databases over the network.
fires10
47h
I work at a multi billion dollar facility for a Fortune 100 company and we still depend on DOS. Keeping the mandatory DOS machines going is an exercise. Especially integrating them into modern systems.
Edit: There is no required hardware, however maintaining a stable serial connection through a VM and timing issues due to faster hardware has been fun.
1. mlaux • OP
  17h
  The serial port stuff is very close to what I'm working on - what's on the other end of the connection? What does "integrating them into modern systems" look like for you: getting data out/pushing data in/both?
londons_explore
18h
This thread reminds me that there is a huge benefit to using a super common OS+hardware.
In 30 years time it will all be outdated... But emulators will exist and a business process in 2050 that still depended on something I built today could still run with minimal effort or risk.
1. chr15m
  07h
  If you have the source code it's going to be a lot easier to continue.
mikewarot
02h
The Gear cutting job shop I worked for had a CNC lathe running with a GE Computer from the late 1970s that stored data on punched Mylar tape, until it was bought out in 2019.
The bevel gear generator setup was some formula calculations running in version 1 of TK!solver, which would have been a $5000 upgrade to get the latest version, so they ran them under MS-DOS in DOSbox, and saved the grief.
Without that software, they would have to pay Gleason $500+ to do the calculations for each new gear setup.
There are strong and reasonable reasons to keep very old systems alive in offline production environments.
Sleaker
08h
The last company I worked for still had customers they were dragging forward to get upgrades from coax connexted green screen terminals to modern network thin clients. It wasnt on DOS, but very old unix OS, tape drives for backups, parallel for printers, serial for scanners. No USB. Lovely troubleshooting when you were dealing with 30+ year old hardware setups. There was only one company that would even servicenthe green screens if they failed, and you couldn't buy them anymore.
ksec
03h
We were talking about Visual FoxPro only a few days ago. [1] And one of those same companies in my comment [2] uses an old ordering system that is still in DOS and they boot up a VM to use it. They still have a printing machine ( not a normal printer ) for those order printing connected via a Parallel Port. I don't know the details of how that works though.
And by the end of all that, the order will be Faxed. Manually.
Did they tried to email it or automate it. Hell yes. Did it work? No.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49808023
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49811716
ynac
09h
It's not totally for business, but I run some antennae and radio telescopes that feed through a Gateway 386/33/16MB RAM. As well as a Getac, no idea what model, but it's from the early 2000s. They both feed through to a A/B switched Paradise CRT (so cute). dBase is on the list.
sgerenser
19h
Does the idea make use of https://86box.net? Just heard of this recently on hn and it seems promising for anything that requires low level/cycle accurate emulation vs. your typical high level emulator.
1. mlaux • OP
  09h
  My idea is a DOS emulator with a really thorough log of every DOS interrupt called and I/O port interacted with. This could then be used to automatically, say, insert rows into a sqlite table when the DOS app updates a .DBF file, or forward GPIB data to a modern USB adapter. I wanted to avoid low level/cycle-accurate emulation as much as possible, only adding quirks as needed to support the most popular business application suites.
Froedlich
07h
Me!
I have a client with some business software that runs on DOS. They have a dozen seats. A single Linux server gives serves a dozen VNC sessions with the software running in DOSEMU. Printing is done with the Linux print stack and three Ethernet print servers.
It has been working without a hitch since 2008. Oh, so has the server, which is a VirtualBox VM.
NBJack
08h
Do scanners count?
I'm pretty sure they moved on from them, but a while ago I did seasonal work for a company that rented out scanners for year end inventory (tax related, IIRC). The scanners had to be "cooked" (flashed) on racks, boxed, and sent. The flashing usually worked, but on occasion, the scanner would fail the checksum or something and drop you into a DOS prompt.
andix
69h
Just out of curiosity: is it possible to somehow attach an ISA Adapter via USB to a VM? ISA does depend a lot on DMA and timing, but the clock is only 8 mhz and gives a software layer on a modern cpu a lot of time to do stuff between ISA bus cycles.
Keeping old hardware running is very fragile. Most spare parts are decades old now too, and nobody knows if they still work properly.
1. Teknoman117
  08h
  To a VM? Possibly.
  The DMA might actually be the easy part.
  The main concern is how many VM exits per second a modern CPU can handle. Even though the interface is "slow", you can probably do ~500k to 1 million IN/OUTs or MOVs per second to ISA. You'd have to trap (VM exit) every access to a IO port or memory within the ISA window.
  During the pandemic I cobbled together a KVM-accelerated emulator for an old 386EX based board I had and trapping every memory access to IO was slower than the real hardware.
lormayna
02h
Few years ago I was working for a F500 company and during an assessment we discovered couple of OS/2 Warp machines that were controlling CNC equipment
saidnooneever
02h
i know still some accountant who use a DOS program to do his work because he hates the fact modern UI has load times. slows him down too much o.O (his program is all keybinds).
i do not have exp myself but i found it a delightful reasoning. i told him modern PC could also do the same on modern OS (ncurses or ratatui or so maybe) but that if he ask a programmer to make an upgrade he'd need to find the right kind of guy. He had someone do it few times but they came back with web interfaces.
nanochess
19h
I've an AMD K5 processor machine running at 100 mhz. for testing Transputer ISA cards when someone buys one, I also use the same machine to format and copy my Pascal compiler into a pair of 5 1/4" floppy disks. All using DOS.
1. bartread
  09h
  > Transputer ISA cards when someone buys one
  Your use of “when” is interesting - suggests it’s not that occasional. Wonder what people are doing with these nowadays.
zdragnar
08h
It's been a few years now, but I know a major manufacturer had some windows XP boxes around because they were the newest hardware/software they could get with native parallel port support to interface with their machines.
To give you an idea of the complexity of the manufacturing lines, shutting the machines down and starting them back up again was measured in days. Upgrading them would be obscenely expensive, let alone replacing them, just in the opportunity cost of not making anything alone.
CobaltFire
09h
I had to keep a disturbingly old machine with GPIB running until a few years back. They are still in operation in Australia (who we sold them to).
It was a test/repair bench for military aircraft avionics, with the only flying platform left using it being the legacy F/A-18 (A/B/C/D). Harris H-100 minicomputer hooked to an HP terminal and several full racks of GPIB test equipment with half of a rack of solenoids for switching between stimulus and response and which pin.
Not what you asked, but the question brought back memories.
83457
28h
My dad ran a commercial 2-way radio business. There were multiple radios with programming software that would not work on anything above a 386 and DOS. He had a couple computers from the late-80s running for nearly 25 years, though I think he had to replace one of them with another of similar vintage. Also, had a 486 that he used for customer notes in WordPerfect up to about 2015.
I suspect he could have found a way to use a newer computer, but if it ain’t broke…
1. betaby
  07h
  Intel was seling 386 CPU up until 2007. I personally was using brand new special equipment with 386 soldered to custom MBs with no VGA, serial only access. I suppose you can purchase such boards from ebay/recyclers today.
smackeyacky
39h
I know of a DOS machine at a wool testing place that uses an ISA card based imager for measuring the micron and other things. They also have a supporting DOS machine with a dBase looking database on it. When I spoke to the owner he didn’t really understand the risks involved in running ancient hardware and in fact had a storage room with period PCs in it if the machines failed. He didn’t have much of a backup plan for the imaging hardware though.
My opinion is that if these guys are still running this gear, they already have a strategy in place (no matter how flawed) and would likely retire before throwing money at something they consider a non problem.
Good luck with the idea. It likely is a tiny niche market with customisation for every customer and given they are normally hardware constrained AI may not be much of a help.
All of them have no money as well.
1. mlaux • OP
  18h
womod
07h
We keep a FreeDOS machine at work for dialing in to configure and service paging terminals and using old two-way radio programming software.
Most of the stuff I've moved over to run in DOSbox but it's still in use occasionally for the software that's difficult to port over.
techteach00
02h
It's not DOS but my private school still uses an IBM 5100 to do payroll and record attendance.
alightsoul
28h
You're trying to create and sell a version of dos box? These companies have not replaced their computers because to the user there is no separation between the computer and the machine it controls. So the computer will be updated along with the equipment, which is not connected to the internet or a network anyways so it's not a cybersecurity risk. For the user, if it runs fine, there's no need to update just the computer, and the computer is updated along with the machine
In other words, these are embedded systems.
1. mlaux • OP
  18h
DASD
010h
Perhaps look into environmental services labs that do contract EPA work. I would not be surprised to see entire HP-Agilent(ISA-carded) - (think liquid chromotography analyzers) fleets that would match what you're looking for.
Postosuchus
27h
This is probably a wrong audience. Most people here are very technical - the kind that would not put up with tiptoeing around a sacred computer from decades ago running some magic software from the DOS era. This crowd will aggressively move it to modernized architecture or at least emulate it using a more modern platform.
The company I worked at in the late nineties, used Managing Your Money (MYM) for bookkeeping - initially on a dedicated DOS machine. My colleague set up a DOSEMU-based emulator and moved the software to it (bye-bye, dedicated DOS machine!). Later, he re-wrote it in STk (Scheme w/ Tk bindings, running natively in Linux) as ageneral-purpose transaction storage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
1. fires10
  17h
nickhalfasleep
06h
I know of some laboratories where they have a host of old machines for software to support some critical instruments that only runs off a dongle or an ISA card and it still does accurate work.
gerdesj
09h
Until recently several customers have an industrial machine that boots DOS. I think the oldest effort we deal with is Win XP now. I do have a C>64 at home ...
In a world that requires security audits etc here's some notes that might help:
Scenarios: You have a device that only talks NetBIOS or even NetBEUI for file sharing. You need to get files to and from it and your CAD workstations run Windows 11 and anything less than SMB 3, with signing and sealing and all that jazz is laughable.
... Devices requiring ftp, telnet, serial over carrier pidgeon
Solution options:
Networking: The first job is to segregate your industrial gear from your general network and you might want to create two or more industrial gear and internet of things type networks with differing access policies. Start with one for now, you can improve it later.
You use 801.1Q VLANS logically or physically (why the hell did I want to write literally?) separate via separate switches.
Please do not skimp on this step. Buy a network bod to sort it out or put your IT bod on a course or hopefully they will have labbed this up at home already!
Comms: Samba is bloody wonderful and speaks everything that MS has ever done and deprecated. Even Samba does need to be asked to start speaking some of those dialects again but it will.
Put a Linux (other Unices are available) box on the same VLAN as your machines. You will need to set quite a few options relating to the minimum version for its server version. When talking to the machines, Samba is the server and when talking to your file server, Samba is the client.
Create a data share on a Windows box on the corp LAN. For example it might be on a file server for multiple access or just a single CAD PC.
Get the Samba box to mount that share to itself at say /srv/data_share_mc1
Now get the Samba box to create a share from /srv/data_share_mc1 which it calls DAT_MC1 (8.3 chars for NetBIOS)
With luck, you should be able to map DAT_MC1 on your machine.
reaperducer
49h
Not DOS, but my company has a Windows XP machine with a dialup connection that I have to keep running for obtuse legal reasons.
If it goes down, the company gets fined. It happened in the gap between my predecessor leaving, and me being hired.
1. gerdesj
  08h
  Does it have to be a XP box or is just keeping a serial dialup connection working the key?
myself248
04h
A few years ago, I helped repair a broken USB port, on a USB-floppy emulator...
...which was so the operators could sneakernet their NC tape files into an IBM PC 5150 that thought it was talking to a floppy drive, of course...
...which hosted an ISA card that emulated the punch-tape reader that the NC lathe had originally been designed with.
The NC lathe hadn't missed a beat in 50+ years, why mess with what works?
newman314
09h
I virtualized a bunch and they seem to work well. At one point, I even had Ultima running on one. =D
al_borland
39h
It’s gone now, but we used to have a random OS/2 box well past the point where that was extremely weird.
1. gerdesj
  28h
  What's weird about Warp?
[deleted]
09h
[deleted]
Natsu
07h
I used to be doing that, but this was a bit over a decade ago at this point. There was an SBC with DOS on a chip that connected to Novell Netware. I set a few variables in autoexec.bat, let it connect to the network drive, then had it run a script from there to admin them / do backups (by which I mean xcopy the C: drive).
These were for some industrial CNC machines with a poorly version-controlled app (send us the single-file .c for the program, we'll make changes & recompile for you, then send back a new .c and .exe file) that would just malloc() all the memory on the machine for a million element array instead of tracking the 1k or so unit IDs a more efficient way. They were six digits long, it worked... mostly.
I kept a 3.5 floppy with the contents of sys a: that I used to run sys c: after restoring a machine from backup in my office.
EDIT: oh, and of course by "restoring from backup" I mean reversing the xcopy to copy everything from the network drive's copy back to C:
EDIT2: My memory is going, they didn't use malloc() at all, anywhere in the programs, they just had a static million element array.
api
07h
Not current and not DOS... but years ago, around 2011, I helped set up a series of QEMU emulators running DEC Ultrix and MIPS Unix software that called out and retrieved data from weather stations only reachable by modem. The software had been written years prior in C and nobody had the source.
The box running the QEMU emulators had a bunch of old US Robotics modems hanging off it via USB serial dongles.
TMWNN
08h
>Anything with a parallel port dongle?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46849567
ironqcold
05h
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vancekai
05h
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Alex131313
09h
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huflungdung
09h
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